London Cycling Campaign

A valid point, and I agree there seems to be a rise in arrogance with some individuals on bicycles, but please don't generalise about cyclists. The same as I will not generlise about HGVs not indicating when turning left. Arrogance seems to be rife these days regardless of transport type, but unfortunately, cyclists seem to be able to draw more attention to themselves.

I spent many years as a motorcyclist, so I do share your view, and very much understand how this sort of behaviour impacts other road users. But please just don't get caught up in generlisation because I am frequently yelled at by drivers with typical anti-cyclist sentiments, but I never do any of the things I am targeted for.

If there are more conflicts between these two sets of road users, perhaps it's because cyclists are now forced to share bus lanes with so many fast-moving motorbikes.

While it's clear people on motorcycles are vulnerable too, they also pose a significant threat to people on bicycles - most commonly because they choose to drive their machines so quickly, very often illegally so.

The motorbikes in bus lanes trial showed that half the recorded motorcyclists were breaking the speed limit, proving that it's a ludicrous proposition that you can create safe and inviting streets for cycling by forcing fast-moving motorbikes into them.

And note, this isn't a baseless generalisation, rather it's a conclusion borne from Transport for London data collected to support a measure that supposedly would reduce road danger for everyone.

You couldn't make it up...

Thank you lcc... I would like to have written something similar, but unfortunately I never seem to be able to do it without enraging someone. So I tend try to educate people against generlisation instead.

By I whole heartedly agree with you.

Hmm, I wasn't arguing for more motorbike access to cycle lanes etc - I don't use bus lanes much anyway, as I prefer the middle of the road wherever possible and bus lanes are all too often full of gigantic, slow red vehicles which stop all the time.

About vulnerabilty, my preferred approach whether on a bike or a pushbike is to be aware of the situations where there's a danger (HGVs, u-turning cabs etc) and try to minimise that through road positioning and defensive riding. I worry that in forums like this the attitude is promoted that "these are the rules and everyone should stick to them." It's a noble aim but it's never worked before, and assuming everyone else will stick to the rules is a sure route to A and E or worse for anyone on two wheels.

My main observation was that I now see cyclists as one of those frequent hazards, with the kind of behaviour I mentioned above. If I find myself in a similar situation, I'll speed up next time (essentially intimidating the cyclist into deciding not to pull out) to stop it happening, employing the same tactics I'd use with cars. I used to make an effort to share road space with bicycles, and now I am inclined to do the opposite. Whatever the reasons for this, I don't think that's a good outcome for cyclists, perhaps you disagree.

I'm not arguing with the need for better road design (some cycle lanes would be funny if they weren't so dangerous), just mentioning where the kind of attitudes I read here, and the behaviour I see on the roads, leads to. It's neither generalisation or based on statistical research - just my own personal experience. It could be that I'm alone, but I don't think so.

"I don't know if cyclists just enjoy the sense of opposition, but I don't think it helps in terms of safety. I'm starting to feel less tolerant, and lessinclined to make that extra effort around cyclists."

There really is not that much common cause between pushbikes and m'bikes except that they have both usually got two wheels.   Accidents to Pushbike users are usually more severe, to motor bikes more frequent.

The hard salesmanship of m'bike dealers is being made much easier by this year's exponential increase in interest in 'cycling' which is unfortunate.

If you have to buy  a motor buy a car. The valuable ecological thought of pushbike riding is no longer good, once sound , speed , fossil fuels, cost ,have taken the place of leisure , good health, and excellent economy.

Maybe if we had a our own cycling tunnel under the Thames that would get some of us out of the way of motorbikes?  They have one under the Tyne:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tyne_Pedestrian_and_Cycle_Tunnel.jpg 

TfL propose building a new road tunnel from the Dome towards Silvertown.

The space that 'pushies' and m'bikes take up, may seem the same, but are in reality very different indeed, in terms of metres per sec M/s.

Velocity is space and 40mph is 4x as much space per second /s as 10mph, obviously enough.

On my brief walk down alongside the westmister superhighway I certainly saw at least one argument, and one non argument.

Two cyclists argued vigorously about bad manners, and one m'cyclist did not argue about his closeness to 'pushies' merely took the closeness.

There must be a good many pushies who have bad experience ,in that case, of their ride home that way, and what the issues are between cyclists themselves re road manners.  Not using ,or even having, a bell is one of them.

Actually. no. Velocity (or more accurately, speed, as direction of movement isn't really relevant) is not space. When you move, you vacate the space you were in before. Any object always takes up the same amount of space, as far as I can tell.A slower moving object takes up the space on the road for longer, obviously.

As to closeness, I wonder if cyclists would be comfortable if I as a motorcyclist gave them as much space as they often give themselves when slipping up the inside? Probably not.

I think as cycling grows more popular, there is a very real case for compulsory training and some form of licensing. If it at least stops people riding under lorry wheels, and perhaps encourages the ides of the 'lifesaver' over the shoulder before changing position, it will be worthwhile.

Actually yes - you can get more traffic through a given space if they slow down. The faster vehicles move the more space they have to leave to avoid collisions.

Likewise there is a real difference between a cyclist slipping up the inside of  stationary traffic at 5mph and a motorcyclist passing at 40.

unhairybiker :

Why were you "filtering through" traffic in the first place if there was no "safe place" to be?

(The cyclist probably should not have done so either in the case you describe).

If you had filtered through and there was an ASL - then you are not allowed in it - as a motorcyclist you are part of the motorised traffic and not entitled to be in front of anything and should have stayed back in the queue.

I'm fed up to the back teeth of having MBs sitting in front of me in ASLs , spewing out their noxious fumes into my face just because they can't understand / be bothered to obey what is a VERY SIMPLE road marking of a PUSHBIKE.

Here we go yet again . Just a background to myself ,I cycle regularly 70/100 miles a week open country and cities , am an advanced motrcycle instructor and was previously an adi car instructor and travel weekly through london although not on a daily basis .

I feel the backbiting between all forms of 2 wheeled transport be it in london or otherwise is very counterproductive for any progress going forward. As with all forms of transport we have the good ,bad and downright ugly/dangerous behaviours by drivers ,motorcyclists ,cyclists and lets throw in pedestrians as well. the only way going forward is for 2 wheeled forms to pressure the city to help by providing more use of cycling only areas this is managed in other cities and should be called for in london as our flagship city in the country. bottom line we will never eradicate poor behaviour by all road users so have to find safer ways to seperate the molst vunerable road road users and a true cycle lane system in the capital would surely be safer than sharing lanes with busses . 

Before anyone goes crazy and tells me to stop defending motorcyclists I have seen the results of poor motorcycling 1st hand and it is horrific so like all of you deplore such behaviour  but as an instructor i teach my pupils to be defensive riders as to expect the unexpected from all road users which in London is not easy to do but necessary to survive and feel that if we also had a better form of cycle networks and maybe throw in the same sort of defensive riding techniques for cyclists from an early age then london would be a safer place to commute .

Finish by saying all road users caught endangering livesthrough their actions should be heavily punished for such recklessness ,education is often the 1st step but repeat offenders need to be dealt with.